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The Problem with Arguing Objectification - A Case of Naked Dante

As with most people who follow every twist and turn of the video game industry, I was audience to the recent discussions of women in and around video games. I'm glad it's happening, because it is long over due, but as is to be expected with these spur of the moment sparks of action the whole thing has died down without doing much more than creating a slight commotion. The sparks are coming more often now though, which I hope is a sign of change and not just people looking for a chance to unfairly burn something for the sake of burning something - although that seems to be what happens, and has happened, every time an issue in the gaming world triggers these sorts of mass responses.

I have a problem with one of the main tenants of the recent movements for equal treatment of women in video games though, or at least how it has been argued. I'm not about to argue that female characters in video games aren't objectified, they are, but I will argue that there is a large hole in the argument that needs to be addressed and discussed. I would hope that everyone on this site is above calling me a pig for pointing this out. Above faulting me simply for being a man when I'm pointing out a flaw in a feminist argument, although experience with the topic leads me to believe otherwise. All I have is my word and I implore readers to read without the pretext of the writer's gender. I joined a guild in Star Wars: The Old Republic made mostly for women so that I could have people to talk to that didn't constantly tell female players to go get them a sandwich. I took a leadership role in UNCC's Gamers' Alliance club as a Freshman and Sophomore, and I'm proud to say that it was an extremely gender diverse group of gamers while I was there. I truly want to see this discussion progress, instead of exist only to demonize games that fall into its crosshairs, but it can't do that without identifying its own shortcomings.

With that said I would now like to direct readers to the picture at the top of this blog, if they have not already stared at it enough. The top image is Dante from a trailer for Ninja Theory's upcoming Devil May Cry reboot, the bottom a trio of fighting game characters from Mortal Kombat, Soul Caliber, and King of Fighters if my extremely limited knowledge of fighting games is not mistaken. Despite being similarly racy in nature however, the reaction the two receive is likely to be completely different on the whole if you walked them around and showed them to people who would be considered knowledgeable about the medium. In general, despite a clearly far less clothed Dante (entirely unclothed in fact), most of the reactions I've seen to that trailer are that it is fittingly over the top for the series. I've seen no or little mention of Dante flying through the air in his birthday suit with extremely phallic imagery conveniently taking the place of his... "goods" as particularly offensive. The other image was ripped directly from an article about objectification of women in video games, as such I don't think I really need to explain the reaction to it. Fighting games have been attacked enough that the sentiment should be familiar to most.

So here is where the issue lies. It has less to do with the reaction to both images, or images like them, and more with pillars of the movement which contradict the argument that the objectification of women is a huge problem. The way I see it, there are just two ways that this argument works as-is, within the context of better representing women in the industry. Possibility A: Women are an extreme minority of the gaming community, and as a result any counter arguments on objectification are null thanks to sheer lack of numbers present; thus, making the naked Dante from the trailer into just a tongue-in-cheek joke about the character, and the female fighters a problem because they exist in a realm wholly dominated by men. Possibility B: Women make up a large portion of the gaming community, though still not a majority by any means; as a result this would make the naked Dante from the trailer the exact same type of objectification as the women from the fighting games, items meant to attract an audience that wouldn't normally pay any attention to the game. Note: I know that same sex attraction can play into this, and I'm fine with that, but it is an even more complex topic and, for the sake of simplicity, will not be touched upon outside of acknowledging that it is a thing which will be addressed in the future.

One of the key aspects of the recent feminism movement in games is the idea that female players are prevalent, that they do occupy enough space within the market for their interests to start being given attention, and that they should stop being discriminated against by male members of the community. I agree with that, but the argument of objectification as it has been made doesn't. It's logical to conclude that proponents of improved representation for women in gaming are not going to concede the ground of their relevance in the community, nor should they. Unfortunately, that leaves the argument that has been made for objectification in a bad spot. I'm going to sound like an ass for saying this, but there's really no other way to put it - it's a "have your cake and eat it too" argument as it stands. If women are a significant portion of the gaming community, and again I maintain that they are, then talk of objectification can no longer simply exist as solely applying to female characters. The conversation needs to change from how bad objectification of women in the medium is to what level of objectification of any human being, virtual or otherwise, we find acceptable.

Either Nathan Drake and Lara Croft doing the same things, and making many similar noises, is okay or both need to change. If a male speaking on the topic of attractive female characters is boorish and unacceptable, then so is Kim Wallace gushing about Kaidan during Game Informer's recent discussions of Mass Effect 3. Skimpily clad fighting game characters can't be objectification if Dante with a baseball bat representing an erection is not similarly classified. If equal treatment is being asked for, and hopefully willingly offered by everyone in the community, then parity in these discussions is a must. Objectification is not a one way street, and while pointing that out as a man - despite the fact that I spent hours meticulously combing over my argument to make sure I was 100% clear in its delivery - is likely to get me called scum it's no less true. 

What's even more important in progressing the argument is a more mature approach to the topic. We, as a community, need to stop writing stories that reward the extremists who see attractive female characters as an excuse to demonize a game they've never played, such as the new Tomb Raider. We need to collectively do a better job of reporting so headlines like "Girlfriend Mode" that misrepresent what was actually said don't become a replacement for actual quotes simply because it sounds like controversy. We need to stop feeding the equally as extremist trolls who claim to be fighting back against the non-existent female takeover of the industry. While games should be examined in a critical light, from both perspectives in the case of objectification if you ask me, taking the freak-out nob and cranking it to eleven does nothing for the industry or the discussion. All it does is start arguments or unfairly vilify hardworking people and the projects that they've put years of their lives into. 

Update For Those Who Did Not Read Carefully: If you read carefully you would have noticed the section that is now bold in the original work before you suggest that I am making an argument about the validity of female objectification. Just so everyone else gets it from now on I will put it in large print font below. Lastly, I know people want more examples but this blog is long, adding more examples isn't going to help clarify the point if you don't understand it. The example is concise, a full on naked man verses a half naked woman. The point of this is to start a discussion and point out a contradiction in the argument itself, not to argue against something I agree is a problem. 

"I'm not about to argue that female characters in video games aren't objectified, they are, but I will argue that there is a large hole in the argument that needs to be addressed and discussed."

Comments
  • I'm sorry but this blog... I don't even know how to respond... I can't even... How does... I'm going back to work with the RPG Maker.

  • I get where you're coming from, to a degree. I'd disagree that focusing on one specific issue represents a "fault" of the feminist movement, but I agree that if a female character being half-naked is wrong, then a male character being half-naked is also wrong. But the example of Dante above isn't really a good one to use, as (unless I'm mistaken) it's from a cinematic. I highly doubt players will control an almost nude Dante for the duration of the game. The other issue that comes up often is marketing, or image. The women above are often a big part of advertising for games that are marketed towards men. Baseball-Dante up there isn't being used in ads aimed at wooing female gamers to play Devil May Cry. I haven't had a chance to play through DMC yet so I can't say for sure, but I'd be willing to guess that image represents a very small part of the entire game. Compared to say, Ivy, who is dressed in that outfit most of the time (it's her default outfit) so the majority of actual gameplay involves her being seen dressed that way. I'm not saying one is right and the other is wrong, and I don't think you're saying one excuses the other. But the two still do exist in unequal measure, and that's as important to keep in mind as who's still doing what wrong today.
  • "either it's all okay or none of it is" -South Park

    Excellent Blog!
  • I was thinking of a good response, but Markus pretty much sums up my opinion. Until the day scantily clad, sweaty, muscular men are the main focus of a game's advertising, *shudders* I don't think we can call the gaming world equal. Great blog, even if I don't totally agree:)
  • Wow, that was a fantastic and well'written blog.  Good job man, I totally agree.

  • So one example of a naked man in a video game means that women haven't been objectified? I don't understand anything you're trying to say.
  • I think the problem people are having with this post is that you aren't providing any examples beyond naked Dante in the trailer. I wouldn't say it's a weak example, but it's only one example amongst the multitude gathered for showing objectification of women in gaming. It's not an in-depth enough article.  

    (Where the heck are the female posters? They need to be reading and responding to the post!)

    One other example is big, burly men in gaming. Men's physiques are pushed to their limits as well in gaming: Gears of War, Chris Redfield in RE5.

    If you want another end of the spectrum, look at Metal Gear Solid 2. While the Western world was praising Hideo Kojima for taking an enormous and amazing creative risk with casting Raiden as the main character for the second half, the Japanese were lambasting Kojima for blatantly pandering to female gamers with Raiden.

    Those are the ones that pop up immediately to mind, but you have to do the rest of the digging if you're going to do something on this.

    To sum it up, a fantastic start to a very touchy subject. When it comes to arguing objectification, men have it the hardest (I'm sorry, it is impossible to ignore the gender of the author when it comes to subjects such as this). Now get out there and do some more research!

  • Videogames often allow the player to do things they cannot do in the real world. These power fantasies often include role-playing as some destined hero, a football player, or some caped crime-fighter. Just as videogames serve as an outlet for power fantasies, they also have a history of serving as an outlet for sexual fantasies. In other words: videogames allow for the player to do things they cannot do in the real world. This may include, for many gamers, copulating with an "idealized" member of the opposite gender. This is the part of the debate that I have noticed not being spoken. Because it speaks to some harsh truths about not only games, but the ones who play them. It speaks to a stigma that the industry and those who play it have worked hard to over come. But it speaks truth. If it were part of the discussion? We might see some interesting movement on this issue. We might see those crying loudest of "objectification" trying to explain why sexual fantasies, in general, are bad. We would see them trying to denounce a routine element of human behavior, which I suspect is, beyond their rhetoric, a large component of the whole debate. I have noticed that those talking the loudest about "objectification" often do not present their proposal for what they desire to see in a depiction of a female character. I also do not see them purchasing games like "Beyond Good and Evil" or "Mirrors' Edge." What those talking the loudest about "objectification" therefore desire, is to deny routine human behavior, and to dictate the ability of others to purchases what they desire: all the while avoiding acknowledging the powerful games which offer rebuttals to their rhetoric, and avoiding buying the games that apparently they would so deem to be the only ones acceptable. Am I comfortable with videogames which portray women and men in skimpy clothing? Not necessarily. Do I recognize that they serve as an outlet for a fantasy, be it of power and sex? Yes. Do I recognize that part of the debate is that there are those who seek to have the power to DENY others the ability to virtually indulge in said fantasies? Oh, yes. I think the book Twilight is garbage and the movie trailers spent seemed to be nothing more than a collection of some were-wolf guy taking his shirt off. But would I claim that the movie is sexist against men? Would I seek to have the book and the movie banned? No. And yet, unless we recognize that a large part of the "debate" is mere cover for those seeking to have just such power, the industry and the games themselves can never move forward.
  • While I generally agree with your call for equal treatment of the issue of objectification between men and women, I believe such a push for equality (as regards defending the male perspective) is getting ahead of the problem, and doing nothing toward resolving the issues we're facing right now.

    UNTIL women are treated more respectfully in our gaming culture, the only thing you accomplish by comparing a nude Dante with the overwhelming numbers of women objectified in games is to insult the legitimacy of the problem of female objectification.

    And personally, I don't think it has anything to do with the fact that you only used one example of male objectification (if it can even be called that). You could have posted a hundred examples, and still there would not be an issue of "male objectification" if it was not *perceived* to be an issue. I don't believe you or any male gamer truly takes offense to Dante's image in any meaningfully personal sense. Plenty of female (and male) gamers, however, do take offense to the perpetual, omni-present objectification of women, and it is this *feeling* of being personally offended that creates the issue, not a philosophical argument (which is what you're trying to turn it into).

    The problem with your argument is that the issue of objectification is really not an equality issue; it's a fairness issue. And there is a difference. Whether we like it or not, women and men are different; many things that most women find offensive are not offensive to most men, and vice versa. So it's not about treating men and women the same, because they're not the same. It's about treating both genders *fairly,* and that means taking into consideration how women FEEL, especially when those feelings differ from those of the male majority.
  • I applaud you for speaking about an important issue in the gaming community! However, I have to disagree with you.

    If you look at the two photo comparisons of the female fighters and Dante, I see a large difference between them, and this can be applied to other games. I haven't seen the trailer, but Dante looks silly. He seems like he's falling over, and that that still is a joke. It's kind of like in Austin Powers when objects were used to censor private parts. I don't get the sense that he is being exploited at all. However, when I look at those women, based on their posing/attire, they are breaking the fourth wall for the gamer's benefit. That's deliberate fanservice in my opinion, and it's exploitative.

    Did you know you can "earn" a trophy in Lollipop Chainsaw for peeping up Juliet's skirt? That's just perverted and unnecessary, especially considering this is a real-life problem. Or how about the zoomed in shot of Miranda's butt in Mass Effect? I can't recall encountering any of this with a male character.

    I do agree that there are stereotypes concerning male characters: they're gruff, tough or buff, but it seems like they are more idealized/celebrated.

    It would be great if games in general could move away from stereotypes like these, which is what Heavy Rain did. Ethan Mars is one of my favorite characters because he isn't a bada*s soldier, or a big hulking guy. He's an ordinary father who loves his son very much, and that is his strength. It was incredibly refreshing to see.

    Anyway, like quasi said, it seems to me that you're questioning the validity of female objectification. And that's a dangerous thought.
  • Here's what I'll say: The are orders of magnitudes more extremely fit male figures in games paraded around like dolls than there are women, because it isn't something developers care about. I get that you all are saying more examples, but this blog is already long and adding more examples wouldn't help cut through to the people who are dead set on disagreeing with this simply because I'm a guy talking about a feminist movement. I completely agree with the sentiment of the movement, but I personally feel it's ignorant to talk about just one side if we're looking for any meaningful progress. For those of you saying that we need to focus on women's issues I disagree. Looking at only one side of the equation is something that slows all progress. People hear feminist and they run the other direction, more progress would be made from discussion of the issue as a whole instead of just how it applies to women. It would result in fewer flame wars and more meaningful discussion.
  • As an adolescent male, I enjoy seeing scantily clad women in just about any form of media, but I agree that developers who use the female form as a way to get more sales from a male audience are despicable. If you want to use sex to sell your games at least appeal to both sides, or don't rely on sex to sell your games at all (which would be the morally appropriate thing to do). Anyways, don't be immature and pander to a single audience with your game, pander to them all if you're that desperate for sales.
  • The problem with looking at this issue as something that can't exist without equal representation is that there is no such thing.
    I agree that men are stereotyped in video games as much (if not more) than women with the super-athetic builds and timely, witty remarks that most of us would dream of having or coming up with. That said, the sexualization, (and it is a hugely different thing than stereotyping) of women for marketing purposes has been going on for generation after generation and these examples in the video game industry are the same as the over-sexualized pulp ads of the 60's and 70's. Without a generation saying 'this is enough' we can't actually make any progress on the issue and the idea of 'male objectification', while a real thing, can't really even be brought up without one looking like an ass.
    And don't take this the wrong way. I've agreed with you on sensitive issues in the past (gun laws, etc.) but don't here. The problem with looking at this issue as individual occurances is that it's an over-arching, multi-generational issue. Saying 'Look, here's one time where the tables are turned!' is silly to the point of being offensive in itself to the gender that's been systemattically obejectified for as long as most of them remember...
    I agree with you that a discussion needs to be had, but until men take the first step and deal with our omnipresent need to put women below us (at least as a group), it comes across as juvenive and clownish to demand 'equal treatment'.
    No offense...
  • My issue comes with most of the concepts of clothing for women in video games. It seems more often than not they are showing skin. As a coach and teacher I don't want my female players and students dressing like these women at school? You brought up Nathan Drake and Laura Croft. They both hunt for treasures around the globe but here is the difference. Laura Croft is wearing skin tight shorts and a tight tank top. Not the particular clothing most people wear on an out door hike that may or may not involve gunfire. For the most part, Drake is fully clothed during his adventures. Had he been running around the jungle in a thong and vest, I think you would have case here. Simply women have been used as eye candy instead of people. Would the original Tomb Raider sold as many copies had she been fully clothed and on an adventure? Sorry but I strongly disagree because I am constantly trying to find female role models for the young ladies in my class and sadly many (in video games and in real life) have decided that showing skin will get you farther in our society which is sad.
  • Thanks for taking the time you took to write this article. Unfortunately, I also fundamentally disagree with your analysis.

    I totally get where you're coming from. We should impose equal standards on developers/writers/etc. who craft characters. Both women and men are portrayed unfairly in many games.

    However, it's not quite accurate to assume that naked or muscular men in games are being sexually objectified. In fantasy/archetype/representation studies, we refer to how men are often portrayed in games and other media as being muscular and gruff as appealing to the "power fantasy." It's quite a bit different from the "sexual fantasy."

    What makes it an important distinction is that power fantasies may be physically problematic (especially to men with body image issues), but they are still "powerful." They still command power and agency in the narrative. However, traditionally and now, when female characters are sexualized, they are stripped of narrative power and agency. They become "objects," even if they're "active" in the sense that they move and are definable characters. There are, of course, examples of female characters who are both traditionally sexy and powerful, but even those characters are problematic (see my "Great Women in Games: Part 1" blog for a brief explanation of this).

    Long story short, I agree with you that men are also portrayed unfairly in most media. But it's sort of like your argument is a doctor who correctly determines that there is something wrong with a patient, but prescribes the wrong medicine because he misidentified the patient's exact illness. You're on the right track in bringing up the issue, but the issue would be more adequately addressed if we can recognize that it's not an issue of "everyone is being sexualized." It's that "women are sexualized and men are portrayed as being fit, gruff, and powerful."
  • I want to start off by thanking you for opening up about your past (and present?) struggles with body image and privilege, let you know that you're not alone in them, and tell you that I have a lot of respect for how candidly you're speaking on this issue.  Seriously, non-hateful candor is really rare these days and I appreciate it.

    That being said, I think a problem that you come up against in your argument that hasn't (to my knowledge, though I haven't read every comment exhaustively) been mentioned yet is that you're not putting the discussion of objectification into the necessary larger context of gender and identity inequality as worldwide phenomenon.  The difference that Ali and others brought up about the nature of male and female objectification is a symptom of a greater inequality between genders, both historically and in the present day.  

    In the US, the male/female wage gap is still 84:100*; elsewhere gender disparity is often more pronounced.  We all saw what happened with #1reasonwhy when it hit us with a sucker punch just a few weeks ago; imagine what Twitter would look like if that gaze were turned on engineering or theoretical mathematics.  The point is, the world is still very much a place where women (and feminists of any gender, by virtue of their voice in support of women) must fight against this systematic discrimination in order to have their voices heard.  

    Therefore, the discussion of female objectification in games is louder, and ought to be louder, than the complementary argument of male objectification.  As many have noted, you are not wrong about male objectification in media.  The problem is trying to call them equivalent.  That's a problem because of the fundamental difference in objectification type, as well as because the contexts of the conversations are fundamentally different.

    By insisting that we turn our attention toward male objectification, you necessarily drown out the necessary discussion about female objectification because of the culture that we live in.  I want to close by referring to an article that isn't strictly on this subject, but which I think is relevant - www.guardian.co.uk/.../nice-guys-commit-rape-conversation-unhelpful.  This gist of that article is that by perpetuating certain myths about date rape, you unwittingly make it easier for it to happen and easier for society to turn a blind eye to the problem.  Now, I do NOT want any discussion stemming from my comment to revolve around the subject of this article; I'm simply using it for that logical framework.  If you perpetuate the myth that male objectification and female objectification are equal, you make it easier to justify the unjust**.

    PS: If I have unwittingly put my foot in my mouth about gender or identity issues, please, anyone, let me know.  As I'm sure you know, sensitivity is a perpetual learning process.

    *I know income disparity is a touchy subject and that different places use different statistics; my point is not the granular specifics but rather the idea that gender discrimination in the workplace is very real even today.

    **Again, this is not to say that I think the author advocates rape in any way, shape, or form.  I actually doubt it very much.  I just think that the conclusion that it comes to is easily paraphrased, and that the article says something that everyone should hear.

  • Since editing my first comment won't get any attention, I might as well comment again to let you know.

    You see, if this was actually something to argue about(which I believe to a point it is), the gaming industry shouldn't be the only one targeted. Heck, you should be aiming at all sorts of media for this kind of argument. You see the same thing in cartoons, movies, tv shows, music, etc.

    If my memory serves me about right, 44% of the Gamer Community is Females, which is a large portion and an acceptable number(even though it could reach 47% by the end of 2014). Sex sells, and even though many won't agree with me on it, it does attract attention for potential buyers. Do I mind a naked Dante to make a purchase? No, because The Ballad of Gay Tony also had it's naked dude, which I still think it's hilarious. It also depends on how do you receive the appeal.

    It's not always the females that get too exposed, but I can list many males which are used for sex appeal to attract more potential buyers as well. In DMC, Dante became that one. In God of War, Kratos is nothing but a rip away from being completely nude. Conan as well, as many others. Males get attracted by female appeal, while females also get attracted to Male appeal, especially if it's exposing. Many Female Gamers won't say it's true, yet I haven't seen a female gamer that doesn't dig a male videogame character. I even know some that like Sheppard's butt.

    It may be a topic that may bother you, and you may think that you are right(which I wouldn't blame you), but many people disagree with this blog, especially me. I'm not saying that you are wrong, I'm just saying that it's not how I see things.(which could mean that you are wrong, but we have different opinions about it).

    Plus, may I also remind you that companies are also awarded for making the most attractive/best female character of the year in a game? This also pushes them to put more sex appeal in the female characters just like Male characters, which I think it's a high five from me.

    Advertising with sex on a game(nudity or not) is what attracts us to make a purchase. I will not deny the fact that I bought Catherine because I was curious what lingers behind that art box, let alone Record of Agarest War. I mean, have you seen the commercials about the game?! Indirect Sex. Here's a link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5YqRdGmXSg

    While yes, it does seem to be an issue with women and some other people who may it concern to, but then again, music does this too, as well as movies and cartoons and TV Shows, yet they don't complain about the same issue? You can't say it's a different issue because it's the same thing.

    Just sayin'.
  • You have written a thoughtful piece that has spurred one of the liveliest and articulate discussions in awhile. I hope that you don't take any of the comments personally because I am impressed with the civility of the overall discussion.

    Personally, I think that you simply conflated female objectification with overall body image in gaming when the two are separate issues. I am interested in a dialogue on body image in gaming which is definitely an under-discussed issue. This time last year I heard murmurs that "Skyrim doesn't have any overweight characters" (apparently an entire country is either brawny or underfed) but then nothing further.

    We have all, as gamers, played as the male protagonist in the majority of our gaming experiences. Female characters, much less protagonists, are few. With so little options when most of the female characters are "sexy" women we are left with the choice to play either as a scantily clad woman (with apparently little self respect) or as a man. We can even choose not to play as a male character that we find offensive because we have an entire library of other games to choose from that feature a male protagonist. Additionally, even with the tendency for blogs featuring lists of gaming favorites the "Top Female Characters" lists typically include the same 6-8 characters with many of those characters in supportive roles. I understand that you recognize and support what I have said.

    In my opinion, you are facing such push back at an argument that combines two different issues and thereby dilutes both. Taking the discussion on female objectification outside of the portrayal of female characters negates the message. Instead change the topic to what you want to discuss. Nevertheless, you began a worthwhile debate.
  • As almost everything I could say has already been said, I'd just like to submit a counter to the idea that Dante is eye candy for women:
    http://img.gawkerassets.com/img/188vpecgcmxpyjpg/original.jpg

    If they were truly trying to play to the female audience, they're doin' it wrong.
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